Measuring Culture: Sport is More Than a Metaphor

@27:00 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Hey listeners, welcome to leading with curiosity my guest today is a long time friend of the show Jeff Smith from the supporting Alliance Institute and high performance sports.

Great timing on the show here today Jeff 12 months ago. after we first started gathering data in the sports world and we have some incredible insights that we’re going to share with our sporting audience but also how highly it aligns with leadership across any industry.

Welcome to Leading with Curiosity.

@28:18 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Thanks, you know, it’s been, I guess, you know, it’s been an interesting journey for you as well. I think you’re in and about episode number 40, so it’s great to be back but just congrats on on all your success with this too and really sort of stay in with it because lots of people talk about doing a podcast but you’ve done it and you’ve stayed with it and it’s been really consistent so congrats on that.

@28:39 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Thanks, Jeff. So 12 months ago, we decided that we wanted to see how our data and the high performance index, which is measuring culture, measuring performance, measuring the human experience at work, how that correlated in the sporting world and through our work at the West Coast Hockey Park camp, we took a sample size of almost

300 families since then you’ve added many many to that. What have you learned through that experience?

@29:07 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Well, it’s been it’s been incredible. I mean, I didn’t I had no idea what we were getting into when we did that survey in a good way.

The biggest thing is that and I think we’re gonna share some visuals as well. I think one of the biggest things we learned was the complete stratification between performance levels and just seeing how performance related to culture and specifically when we look at teams that are low performance high performance or elite high performance as we call them we see some really amazing patterns in in the data and so when we look at a team where the participants are the athletes on that team and again, this is based on the West Coast Prep Data last year when when players say that the team they were on was

SCREEN SHARING: Jeff started screen sharing – WATCH

the low performance team, which means that it did not perform to their expectations. The culture scores were also not good.

When we looked at a high performance team, which is the one on which the athletes would agree that the team is performing, the culture score got a lot better, but it was on every dimension.

We’ve kind of seen this before in the corporate world, but not this in such a compelling way. And then when there’s an elite high performance team, that’s when people strongly agree the team is performing.

And in that one, essentially, they agree that they have all of the elements of culture that we measure. So you have nine different dimensions of the measure and they kind of break down into like, do you have a structured approach to perform and achieve your goals?

And then is there a great athlete experience? What I didn’t expect was a couple things. One is I didn’t expect it to be that linear.

We’d always talked about, you know, pick one or two things and just go work on it. Don’t try to be 20 because you won’t do it.

And it was a blend of believing that everything was impactful. Just doing anything would help. And I’ve seen so many times that we picked 20 things and then we don’t do them because we have 400 other things you’re trying to do as well.

And so our whole pick one or two things, I didn’t realize how correct that was, but when you see this pattern and how everything moves together, it really validated that.

The second thing I didn’t realize is that this is almost exactly the same. The pattern is the same. Some of the numbers are a little bit different, but the pattern is exactly the same as what we see in corporations.

And so that was excellent in the standpoint of the insight. It was it was sub excellent in the sense that it actually changed everything.

So we have actually also we came up with an analytic that I thought was simpler for the sports world.

Turns out it’s actually it’s simple and more powerful at the same time. And so what we’ve done is we’ve actually changed all of our organizational assessments.

To be exactly the same. And what we’re seeing is that it all lines up. And so it just really validates what we do from the beginning.

And this to me was all about performance. us in the beginning. So the human performance and this really validates that it doesn’t really matter what theater you’re in, whether you’re a teenager playing hockey.

We’ve seen this data from other sports as well, but if you’re a teenager playing hockey or you’re someone working in a company in virtually any industry or a government agency, non-profit, humans want to perform while doing meaningful work and while growing.

That’s kind of it. There’s other details and stuff, but that’s kind of it.

@32:27 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Give us that again, Jeff.

@32:30 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

So yeah, I mean humans want to perform. They want to perform while doing meaningful work and they want to be growing.

We’re evolutionary creatures. So we want to be successful at doing the right work while being on a trajectory of growth because we’re evolutionary creatures is what we do.

And so there’s been a move in some circles away from talking about performance in the organizational world. And I just don’t think that could be a more incorrect approach.

I think having a very fair, approach to performance and make sure people are also having good experience is important, but we need to perform.

@33:05 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

It’s critical. And without getting too into the details of how we actually measure that, it’s around we measure things like clarity of expectation, clarity of rule.

Do I have the support that I need to be successful?

@33:19 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

So it’s not a performance review at the end of a hockey season or once a year in a business setting.

That’s right.

@33:26 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Because you could have told me something 11 months ago that would have made all the difference. So it’s about this ongoing way of existing that makes all the difference and the data keeps proving that to us time and again.

And for me, the mic dropped when it went from sport being a metaphor for leadership to saying teenagers are having the exact same experience as their parents in the work setting.

And we have a responsibility whether you’re a leader in a sports team to care about all of it.

@33:59 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

100% 100% I always forget the name of the gentleman who wrote this book, so I’ll apologize to him. But it’s the CEO of WD-40.

He wrote a book that was titled Something Along the Lines of Don’t Grade My Paper, Help Me Get an A.

@34:13 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Right.

@34:14 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

And so a performance appraisal is all about assessing someone’s performance. This program, this whole approach is about helping people perform.

Like in our own company, we’ve actually stopped doing performance appraisals. We don’t even do them anymore. Don’t need to.

We’re talking about performance every two weeks. But it’s in the context of how can I help you perform as opposed to some bell curve thing where we got to balance it all out for HR and stuff that we’ve done on a legacy basis.

And many companies still do today. It’s about helping people get the A rather than the big red A on the paper.

@34:47 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

So for the listeners who are listening to the audio here, just a reminder, we have all of this on YouTube as well and it’ll be in the blog post and the show notes.

What we’re looking at right now is essentially our key. image that really describes exactly what we’re measuring and we see These low-performing teams teams who have acknowledged that they are not Performing up to their expectation all these black dots to the outside of this spider web and as that answer to that question changes Are you performing?

At a really high level all of these different things that we measure move more towards the middle So listeners on audio please do check out the show notes and and it’s it’s a it’s a very compelling Argument Jack.

We have an example too of a team West Coast prep camp coach as well our our friend and colleague Nick to Shane They took over a team almost identical team from one year to the next.

Why don’t we share? What happened there with some of these insights?

@35:51 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Yeah, I mean we we ran this I met Nick actually at the debrief session last year when we did a coaches night with the West Coast coaches and we’ve since

You know, we spend a lot of time talking about the stuff. You really guess it and What we I think that it shows the power of the model because one of the things that you’ve seen there’s really you know I there’s four different types of teams that you know Don’t perform as well and one of them we could talk about the other three But one of them is when you have a really good coach Who just might need some of the tools Nick came in as someone was a really good coach He would have I think turned this team around regardless, but we only did two little things Right, it’s like I remember I had this chiropractor that used to make adjustments and like you didn’t feel like you did anything But then the next day you were sore like I almost feel like we were that chiropractor So it was slight tweak to the way you did one-on-ones You already had a very robust approach to one-on-ones and the other thing was you had some players in the team that you needed to give Feedback to or hold them and or hold them accountable And so we have an approach called, you know three-story feedback for you You state clearly what your issue is why are you giving the feedback you then invite the other person from a place of curiosity

city might add, not like, you know, just like someone’s podcast I can think of. Um, you invite them to share their story and then you create a better way forward.

And so that’s it. Those are the two things we did and they literally flipped the record. There’s a couple of things about this.

It’s really cool. One is the core of the team is the same. Uh, the other is that they were actually, uh, like, they won their first playoff series in, in, you know, recent memory and they beat a team that was a full year older than them on average.

Okay. So that they in a, in a junior B league, this team, the sick and was eagles with a team that was had a lot of young kids on it.

Um, they literally flipped the record from 14 wins and 25 losses to 26 wins and 15 losses. Um, you know, so just a C change, but it also, it happened in every front goals for per game or better goals against, um, you know, also improved.

So it was on every dimension. And the, the big thing is that when we ran the assess. and sort of mid-season, we actually did a debrief with all of the players.

It was great. The things that kind of came through for the team was a couple things. First of all, they have a high performance culture, so I was glad to see that the team that was performing at or above expectations had a culture that lined up with that.

And the other thing that was clear is that there was definitely a connection from the players’ perspective between how you showed up everywhere, not just on the ice, and how you showed up on the ice.

So if you did your dishes in the dorm, you were more likely to also put an effort of practice, and then the office was true.

The other thing that really came through, which you’ve actually seen in the West Coast data, and virtually every team or association we’ve talked to, there’s also a very important thing, we’ll talk about resilience.

Very important element of resilience is that the bench needs to be home-based. And so it’s very common, especially when we try to empower athletes, young athletes,

To be leaders they’ll think that being a leader is to be really vocal when someone doesn’t make a good play or whatever When in fact with that person needs especially at higher levels, they know they made a bad play like yeah I’m pretty sure I know I passed it to that guy that just scored in our net like I got it but It’s it’s not to be skews a bad play It’s more to reinforce so they go out and perform next time and not take that baggage with them the next time They go out and so the more he meets kind of chirp each other on the bench Just like the same thing at corporate setting the more we’re really difficult with other people and stuff like that It actually undermines the team’s resilience which undermines the team’s performance And so that was another thing that this team really tried to do is like let’s let’s show up in all facets Not just on the ice and let’s try to support each other more and yeah, they pulled off a big round one upside and again They’re team you know fully or younger, which really matters in junior I’m just gonna clarify and connect a couple of dots because one thing you mentioned was how in your company Rather than annual performance reviews your

@40:00 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

talking performance every two weeks. You mentioned you mentioned one to ones here and there are some sports listeners here saying like how did they manage their you know one to one one on one in a hockey game and so I just actually want to clarify the value of one to one conversations in a slightly scripted way that have such impact they had them for Nick.

We’ve seen you and I have seen companies completely turn around their culture so let’s just clarify the power of a great one to one that isn’t forward against defense.

@40:32 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Yeah I mean you know there’s a couple of different types right so there’s the one on one that a coach would have with players.

Sports has forced us to sort of look at the core essence of what we do in companies so the company it’s like you know a 45 minute meeting between a manager and employer every couple of weeks or every month or whatever.

Sports coaches don’t have time for that they got more people often you’re you know you might get a bursary or something as a rough coach for your you know you just don’t have the time you get a job you get other stuff going on.

And so we we tried to look at what is, if we distill the core essence down, and I challenged myself to come up with a seven minute version of it, would it still work?

And so I actually tried it first in a corporate setting, then I had people try it in sort of a sports setting, and it’s beautiful.

So it’s, yeah, seven minutes. You know, there’s an element of recognition, which is just like, how have you, how have you won this year individually?

What have you accomplished? There’s a, we do talk about growth. The other thing then is you make sure the player understands what their contribution is from there on in the season, and what it has been to this point.

And then the final master stroke is you ask the player what feedback you have for me, like how can I be better?

And that’s it. You can do it, do it in seven minutes. If you uncover something that’s a problem, it might extend a bit.

But I think in 90% of cases, what you’ll find is that it’s seven to 10 minutes, like it’s super fast.

The key thing is that that’s checking some of the most important boxes in psychological safety and in culture. And it, these, these one on one

even the simple version are like more than 90% connected, which is incredibly powerful connection to overall culture. And so they’re just super powerful, even if they’re only seven minutes long.

@42:12 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

It’s crazy. Let’s go there because psychological safety in that culture, whether it’s sport or company is also something that this diagnostic tool measures.

And this seven to 10 minute, 30 minute, 45 minute meeting is not to be confused with coach talking at player or manager in a company setting talking at employee.

For those listeners, understanding the world of coaching in leadership, understand this is more about asking. So let’s make the dive a little deeper into that correlation between letting someone speak about what’s important to them and psychological safety.

@42:55 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

It’s huge. I mean, it’s, you know, my own experiences as coach. I’ve seen it where. You know, a player will come off the ice and there I did a lot of work with, you know, female hockey in particular where the players are very self accountable.

And so when they come off the ice, they already know that they did something and they’re like, they’ll feel that they feel like they like their team down.

And so the exercise there is rather than doubling down on that and letting them know that they made a bad play.

I like asking the questions. It really helps create cycle, out your safety rate in the moment and it creates empowerment too.

Because you’re like, all right, what did you see? Because you’re kind of telling them like, I know you didn’t do that on purpose.

Like if you did, we need to have another conversation, right? So I know you did it on purpose. So what did you see?

And you try to kind of open it that way. The other one I’ve seen is in recognition. There’s lots of coaches that think they’re giving recognition.

A great example I had this year was actually with with was with my son. And so in one of the games, he was on the ice made a good play coach in the bench is great about it.

He’s like, wow, do you guys see that? Like he angled them out, played physical, didn’t take the penalty. Like, perfect job, guys.

That’s it. That’s what I want to see. I’m going to go back to the bank. My son got back to the bench.

This coach said nice shifts that and So the the miss there was that when the players on the ice they don’t hear it Right and so the opportunity there is not to just get the whiteboard out when someone does something wrong But often I found that if you ask questions Of your players even when they do something right.

I’ll say oh great shift nice play and they’ll be like oh thanks coach And I’ll say do you know what you did and they’re like no, okay?

Come here so get the whiteboard up for those things too It’s like look this play here. We’ve been working on this in practice And when you were the second player in on this four check or whatever play it is like that’s exactly what we’re trying to do You did the thing and they’re like oh yeah, I did the thing and they get excited about it.

So Reenforcing with the whiteboard I think is more important than saying like look you got to do this and you didn’t do that or whatever Because I think I just think players just they just they turn it off and I think that is again It’s a psychological safety thing if they don’t feel safe in that moment They’re gonna put the door down and you’re they don’t even hear you.

@44:58 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

That’s my experience and and and insert person with player at any moment here. We take that example. So we’re going to something else that we also measure is specificity of feedback.

How many of us use Good job? Perfect example. Someone does a presentation at work and their manager says, hey, good job.

That’s one thing that’s probably better than no feedback at all. But hey, Jeff, you were really clear today and your voice projected beautifully.

And I thought you really nailed the three points that we talked about preparing for this. That was the best presentation in those areas that I’ve seen.

The specificity of that is a completely different experience than Good job. What do you want to add?

@45:39 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

So important. I think you got it. I think the key is to be whether it’s recognition or feedback. You want to be really specific about what had happened.

I like talking about the impact. It’s really important to connect it to team values if you have that opportunity, especially with feedback about behavior.

You know. like establishing team values is one of the most important things you can do as a coach or as a leader of a team.

And I think the reason for that is it gives you a set of pre-agreed things that you can later come back to a whole people accountable to.

Like this is our standard behavior. If you don’t have it to find it’s harder to find the language in a moment in a way where the person doesn’t feel like it’s kind of like a personal attack or something.

And so the big thing that we’ve seen is whether it’s feedback recognition, it’s kind of the same. You want to be specific.

You want to connect it to why it’s important. And I think it’s recognition is just catching someone doing something right.

So they’re exactly the same thing. And so I think in our program what we try to do is find what is the minimum of the team.

Simplest way to get the outcome. I think that’s what really works well in sports. That’s how we always did it in companies, because as a former C-suite executive, I know how busy I was.

And so I needed stuff that was fast and easy. And also, like, I can remember it, I didn’t have to go look up some 30s heaven step thing to do something.

It just like make it really easy. And so I think the other thing the sports has done is because I think it’s for a lot of coaches, it’s a part-time thing, volunteer thing, whatever it is, it’s like you don’t have, you don’t even have the time that executives would have.

And they don’t even have the time to do stuff as much as they would like. And so the key thing is it needed to get simpler, faster, and easier.

And I think it’s really helped reinforce our entire program.

@47:36 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Yeah. Jeff, in our last few minutes here, what else have you learned as a result of gathering sports data as it pertains to measuring culture?

@47:47 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

I think the other thing I mentioned that there’s like, you know, when we talk about, you know, what makes a good team culture or not a good team culture.

SCREEN SHARING: Jeff started screen sharing – WATCH

I’m going to show a chart here. which, you know, these are, it’s real. I’ve, there’s no, you can’t see the question names or the element names or the teams, but you get the idea here.

Let’s say this is, you know, an association, or again, you could insert company with a bunch of departments. So green is good in this case, and yellow is one where the others work to do.

And so there’s a few things that we’ve seen in both companies and in sports. In sports in particular, we’ve at this point found four different types of teams where they would have like lots of yellow, which means that it’s not, it’s not the best team experience.

It’s not a good team to be on. Also means the team isn’t performing. The first one I talked about, which is, you know, you’ve got a really good coach.

You’ve got someone that just, you know, if we can give them some of the tools, they’re just going to go next level, right?

Just Nick D’Shane is a great example of a coach. It’s just before we even talked to him, he was excellent.

We helped him take his game to another Lovela’s coach. Obviously another type of environment where you could have where someone’s struggling.

It would be if you have a coach that’s not a good coach, in extreme form a coach that is very aggressive, you can be a super player.

So in terms of verbal, the way they talk to them and stuff, or emotionally, that’s obviously gonna create a really terrible team environment.

Interestingly, you can actually see in some of the data that the players will galvanize around each other, and their bond could be stronger, but overall it’s not a good experience.

And we see that the comments too, it’s not just data, like you see the comments, and then when we go talk to people about what’s going on.

So yeah, we coach, to really poor coach, that’s gonna create it. The other one we saw is parent group.

We had one in particular I could think of, where the parent group was so aggressive that it actually destroyed the culture of the team.

And the team didn’t perform, and as a result, it just was a self-fulfilling situation that was really, really bad.

So parents need to, we’re gonna do some more research on this, but I think parents probably don’t realize the end.

impact that they have on a team’s culture. And when this is kids trying to just play a sport, like I do think people need to chill sometimes.

And I’ve had moments too as a hockey player myself where I need to have probably someone else remind me of that when I’m frustrated.

So I get the frustration, but very group can destroy a team. And I’ve seen multiple examples of that. The other one is when you have team members who are not not being good teammates, they’re eroding the fabric of the team’s culture.

And they’re not held accountable, whether it’s by their teammates or by the coach. So it’s poor coach, teammates that aren’t behaving and aren’t held accountable.

The parent group really having a negative impact on the team. And the final one is, yeah, we have seen lower scorers where I know the coaches and they’re really good people.

Like they’re excellent. They just don’t have the tools. And so, you know. In hockey in particular, but I think all sports a lot of times, you know, you’re promoted to be the coach Because you’re good at the sport now hockey has a whole bunch of training I’ve actually seen this even more extreme in dance and my daughter’s dance school and I’ve one daughter actually left the school because of this But you have people that don’t even get all the certifications and training that you do know the sports And so there I’ve seen it kind of be you know even more challenging because people they’re good at the sport But they they haven’t had the training or the tools and so you know the the big thing for me is that in that In each of these scenarios There is a way for us to measure that’s happening Recognize that there’s an issue and then try to figure out which of these kind of four things and so we could be don’t To get the coach back and it could be that people just weren’t aware and it could be that people would like some training to be able to do better And so that’s really important to identify which of those four flavors I guess you have if you have a culture I’m gonna take those as metaphors now

@52:00 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

back to the business world to maybe wrap this up. First was a great coach who doesn’t have the tools.

That is, in a work setting, a great individual contributor. Let’s call it a sales person who gets hired into sales manager.

Great person was a great performer, doesn’t yet necessarily have the tools. Often with help on things like the work that we do, cautious to say easy fix, but it’s easy to fix if the person wants to do the work.

You’re pushing an open door then, then it’s easy. Yeah. And so number two, work coach, abusive, psychological safety, same in the workplace.

Third one was parent group, metaphor, team functioning. Other teams set a company and other teams or leadership being dysfunctional and abusive.

And also like culture.

@52:55 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

That’s right. And also you can have outside factors like if you’re an association that has members. and they’re not treating your staff properly.

That has an impact. The other one, I have one client where they have several clients that have this scenario, but one in particular, they have very difficult work.

It’s social services sort of thing, and they have very difficult work. And so when you’re working with very difficult clients, because your services do provide support to people that have challenges, that could be difficult.

That also leaves a mark. Like think of a health setting too, right? Like if you’re, it can be exhausting to be a health practitioner.

And so that, you know, so there are, you’re right, there are multiple other things outside of just your team or your leader that could be creating pressure.

@53:40 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that fourth and final one of, it’s actually the lack of high performance culture is in the team members, and oftentimes that’s about accountability and feedback.

@53:52 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Yes.

@53:53 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

Yes. To catch that cancer before it grows.

@53:57 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Yeah, it’s, you know, really tough. Like I, it’s, it’s. hard to have those difficult conversations. And so what I would encourage people to do, when we first saw we got tools and make it really easy.

So the three story feedback, three story accountability, you have defined values to hold someone against. The biggest thing is that when you’re thinking about how difficult the conversation is gonna be with the one or two people, I’d like you to think about the impact that they’re having on the other 10, 20, or 30, or 50 people.

Right, it’s the prize is to remove this situation for everybody because what’ll happen is you’ll have a lot of turmoil, whether it’s a sports team or in a company, I’ve had personal experience with this this year.

Or you could have a scenario where, yeah, you start losing some of your top talent on either a sports team, because I’ve seen that or in a company because people have the ability to move and if they’re a free agent, they can go wherever they want the following season.

Whether it’s at workplace or on a team, they’re gonna go. And so now you’re left with, you know, a really challenging situation because the team will move backward and you still haven’t helped.

@55:00 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

of these people accountable. So I think it’s really important to nip that stuff in the bud. The only person happy that you’re not addressing the toxic behavior as the leader is that person that’s getting away with it because everyone else feels it.

Yeah, 100% Jeff, you know, we just ran the coaches playbook open course and what I just loved in that was all the different ways people can engage with the high the supporting lines institute material.

So for those listeners wondering, how can I access or what’s my barrier to entry or what’s my opportunity to entry?

I would like to describe to them that there’s a listener here who could use this as a free self assessment.

@55:40 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

How am I doing as a leader as a free prediction assessment?

@55:43 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

What do I think my team sport or other would say about our culture? There is the team from 10 people up to thousands in multiple languages.

which you and I had the chance to do together, where we can measure by department, by tenure, by gender, by division, by education, all different ways where we can dig in and find what we can celebrate in the organization and what are the one or two things that they could start doing differently as our clients that would really move the needle.

Of course, we have this in the corporate and business setting or the organizational setting as well as the sport one, which sounds like a lot, but what is given me as a practitioner and given our clients is the right entry point that works for them and it can scale.

And so, again, find that on my side, of course, contacting me at nadetnatelessley.ca. Check out supportinglinesinstitute.com. What else do you want to share about how people can engage with this incredible work that you’ve developed?

@56:55 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Yeah, I think, you know, at supportinglines.com, you’ve got the two, like you said, you’ve got the two Everybody at the what would your team say kind of predictor and you’ve got what do you think?

What’s your own assessment of your own leadership? And I think it’s like what do you wonder about let’s start there and then for you know We’re a social enterprise trying to focus on you know Helping millions of people have a better experience of work and I guess now in of sport And I think the biggest thing is that again It goes back to that I’m gonna talk about earlier if you pick one or two things and you just start in You’re gonna make rapid progress and some of the stuff you literally can do it like today But you can make it you can start today.

I know that sounds a little bit cliché, but it really is true and I think You know we have programs for you know large multinationals or entire you know minor hockey leagues or programs We also have things that can just come right down to one individual It’s got you know very modest budget and it just wants to do something to be better and to improve and so I think that’s the key.

It’s like what do you wonder about or what do you know you need to work on and yeah Let’s let’s do the work

@58:00 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

So if someone leads with curiosity about their own culture or leadership, is that the terrible punner? Is that exactly appropriate time to do it?

I think it’s awesome. It’s exactly it.

@58:11 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

I mean, I didn’t totally do that on purpose, but if I was smart, I would have. But that’s it.

Like, what do you wonder about?

@58:16 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

What are you curious about?

@58:17 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

And I think if you have a shred of, if you’re listening to this and you have a shred of self awareness, which I’m guessing you do because you’re listening to this, you would actually be able to, if you fill out the high performance index prediction, you would uncover a couple of things that you know to be true about your team, but probably in a way that you might not have seen it otherwise, even with the free self assessment.

@58:39 – Nate Leslie (nateleslie.ca)

We will put links to those free assessments in the show notes as well. Jess Smith, supporting London Institute, high performance sports.

Thank you so much for your time again.

@58:51 – Jeff Smith (SupportingLines)

Always a pleasure and congrats on the continued success of this. I’m sure we’ll have lots more to learn. Maybe we can come back again and others on.